A few months back I was speaking with Al Getler. (Yes, that Al Getler) I was lamenting the fact that I never had a chance to interview Paul Winchell. Al said, "David you have to talk with Burt Dubrow." Well it turns out that Burt and Paul were life long friends and in fact Burt, since Winchell's passing has kept Paul's legacy alive through the years.
So who is Burt Dubrow? Well, he is best known as the producer for the Sally Jessy Raphael Show, Dr. Drew, and the notorious Jerry Springer Show. The former, Sally Jessy Raphael, won an Emmy for the best daytime talk show. So, with those kind of credentials I thought maybe, just maybe and for once, Al Getler might know what he is talking about.
I wasn't disappointed.
Paul Winchell was a very complex genius. The holder of numerous patents, the least not being the artificial heart, and an entertainer who effected an entire generation to this day. Who has not heard of Jerry Mahoney and Knucklehead Smiff? He was a true innovator of the art form. A television pioneer and an intense personality. He was also a tormented man who carried his demons with him most of his life. One who was difficult, if not impossible to get close to.
And yet, there is Burt Dubrow, one who knew Winchell and called him friend. Because of that friendship, Burt was able to discover much about the man. Today, he shares that legacy. We sat down one night during the 2024 convention in Ft. Mitchell. What follows is that interview.
Generally, I divide these longer interviews into two parts, but this one with Burt is so engaging, I have left it intact as one read. Stay with it, you won't be sorry.
And now, here is " Winchell" with Burt Dubrow on Vent-o-Gram.
When did you first see Winchell?
I saw him as a kid on television. When we were growing up, puppets were all that we really saw. Winchell... somehow the relationship he had with Jerry….I was just fascinated.
How old were you. And what did seeing Winchell do to you at that age?
I was ten years old, and frankly, it took me into a world that to this day I’m still in. I was completely blown away by his talent. And again, the relationship he had with Jerry was absolutely amazing.
The fact that he was in the media…did that have any influence on you in terms of your own career later on?
Yes. I had a love for puppets. Curiously not marionettes. I never understood that. But without a doubt, he affected my career. It sent me in a certain direction, yes.
Was there ever a period of time when Winchell was out of your consciousness?
No. Not that I remember. On some level I was always interested in him and what he was doing.
Outside of the media, did you ever have any contact with Winchell as a kid?
As a matter of fact I did. I was at a summer day camp. Somebody had told me that Paul Winchell’s son was at the same camp. Now when you’re ten years old, at a summer camp, you can’t just wander away from the group! Well, I did. And I got to see Paul from afar. That was quite the experience. You know, there he is in the flesh kind of thing. Stuck with me all my life.
Did you ever conceptualize that later in life that perhaps there was “six degrees of separation “ between you and Paul?
I don’t think I did. I was just simply awed by him. I didn’t necessarily want to be a ventriloquist. It wasn’t that. I was struck by what he did and who he was.
In spite of all your accolades in life, your awe for Winchell remained?
Accolades? (Laughter)
Well, c’mon Emmy award winner and all?
Well ok, but here is the thing. I don’t think that I would have had the success that I did without Paul’s influence on me. Definitely an inspiration. Never in a million years did I think that I would ever have the opportunity to get to know him.
Did he ever talk to you about the Major Bowes Original Amateur Hour experience?
Sure. He talked about all that. After he won, he traveled with Frank Sinatra. Frank loved Jerry. Major Bowes had a road show you know, and Paul had to come up with an encore. Sinatra would work Jerry backstage. So, when Paul came out for his encore, Jerry would stick his head through the curtain and do a little dialog. Of course Sinatra was the one working Jerry.
He was with the Ted Weems Orchestra back then wasn’t he? He was young.
Yes. He did a lot of bands. That is where he kind of found himself. Jerry began to change. You know from the time he got him to what we know as Jerry today. That whole time was a work in progress.
How did the connection with Frank Marshall come about?
Well, Frank Marshall was THE guy. If you were a ventriloquist and you were going to go pro, Frank Marshall was the go-to. First off, Paul had built a figure in art school.
Wasn’t that Jerry named after one of his teachers?
Yeah, Jerry Magin. That is where the name Jerry Mahoney came from. Anyway, Paul put together the money and went to Chicago to Marshalls place. Interestingly, Frank used to interview people before he would agree to make a figure. Well, he said he would make one for Paul. Paul waited for weeks and weeks and finally Jerry was ready. He went to the shop and Frank said, “Here is your figure.” Paul looked and said, “Well, sir, with all due respect, I can’t use this.”
Really…
Yeah, well Frank was kind of, shall we say...
Alcoholically impaired?
Yeah, well, I didn’t want to say that. (laughter) Anyway, Frank didn’t understand this and Paul said, “Mr. Marshall, this dummy looks a little like me.” And Frank said, “Well, I try to do that with all my figures. You know, put a little bit of the ventriloquist into the dummy.
Now, believe me, this tells you a lot about Winchell. He turned down a dummy from Frank Marshall! Then Frank said, “Well OK.” Paul said, “ Well, I don’t want to leave without anything.” Well, there was a stock figure in the shop. Marshall named him ‘Nosey’ in his catalog. Paul said, “Well that one would work.” And, that was that.
I can’t imagine Marshall’s reaction.
Well, he was shocked that Winchell wanted a stock figure. So, he walked away with Nosey, did a little work on him and turned the dummy into Jerry.
How was his relationship with Frank later on?
He had no relationship, because he, Paul, told everybody that he had made the dummy. Well, that was just Paul. Later on he duplicated Jerry, changed him a bit, put the winkers in and then on some level rationalized that he actually did make Jerry.
Why do you think he felt the need to change the Nosey figure?
Well, the Nosey he had was mainly a burlesque figure. In other words, it worked well from a distance. When television hit, and this is the way Winchell’s head worked, he knew a camera was going to be doing a close up. Well, in a theater you didn’t get closeups. Because Winchell thought Jerry should be more animated and that is why he originally put in those winkers.
How did he get into television?
Naturally like everyone else at that time. He was just one of those guys. People would see him and say, “Hey you ought to come on this show.”
So, it was a result of his performing opportunities.
Yeah. The good guys in the biz, like Jimmy Nelson were ending up in television. Back then, they were looking for talent because vaudeville had really kind of transposed itself to TV as a variety performing medium. I think the first show he did was with Dunninger the hypnotist. This would have been the Marshall Jerry back then. But that is how he started. Once he was seen on Dunninger, NBC ended up hiring him. He had 5 or 6 different shows from then on.
Winchell had all this success in television. So many shows it would be hard to catalog that in this interview. But, he did write the book….
Ventriloquism for Fun and Profit. I don’t know how many copies were sold but I do know this, every kid in the world… do you have one?
Of course.
I remember going to the library and getting it. I think I still have my library copy.
The library police are going to come after you! (laughter)
Well, here is the thing. It was the only one of his time. I know that Bergen did a record and had a lot of merchandise but that was a different time. Winchell wrote the book, in 1954 I believe. In a way that statement is a metaphor…he wrote the book on ventriloquism. To this day, it is the book.
How many copies were sold?
I don’t know. It seemed like everybody and their brother and sister had one, but you also have to remember that even then the ventriloquist universe wasn’t that large.
Well he had the contest too. It was nationwide. So there had to be some popularity there.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I remember when I found the book it was like finding a pearl of great price. I still have it. Paid a dollar for the book.
It was in hardcover and then went to softcover. Listen, I didn’t even need the book. Just the cover! To see him and Jerry in that iconic pose. Such a great shot.
He was wise enough back then to put everything in that book. Not only how to do it but how to make your own dummy.
What about the video version?
Well he did that years later. To me that is the best video on how to be a ventriloquist hands down.
Did he ever talk to you about the book?
Yes, he was genuinely surprised at how popular it was. But, there was a bigger surprise. Years later he got to meet us! And, guys like you and me would rave about the book and how influential it was in our lives.
He wasn’t aware.
You know I’ve been in this industry for a while and ‘we’ have a tendency to put a magnifying glass on some of these guys, when in fact they were just trying to make a living.
Speaking of trying to make a living, I’m guessing he pulled no residuals off of those early shows.
No, no. He was just paid a salary and not a very good one.
Do you think it was a good salary based upon the average salary in those days?
Well, yeah. He did ok. He was making 500 to 600 dollars a show back then. Most of those guys made better money doing personal appearances than they did from any television show. Television in those days was simply a vehicle for them to get out there and make more money.
Let’s talk about his relationship with Bergen.
First of all, Paul had polio as a child. He was bedridden. He also had that terrible relationship with his Mom. She was abusive to him. She was obviously a very sick woman.
Well, he would listen to the radio and hear Bergen. He was fascinated by Bergen. He had no idea that Bergen was a ventriloquist. None. He just listened to the radio. Then his sister took him to the movies, I believe it was ‘Letter of Introduction’ and Winchell for the first time realized that Bergen was a ventriloquist. That was the beginning for him.
Do you think Bergen was threatened by him?
My opinion? Yes. From talking to Paul and a couple of things on television, yes. That 'What’s My Line' show,' Paul is reaching out to Bergen and Bergen would have none of it. It was uncomfortable. In fact, when Winchell was invited to bring out Jerry, Bergen said, "I don't mind if you don't!"
Bergen also said in that same episode that when he would do personal appearances, 8 out of 10 of the figures that the kids would bring were the Juro Jerry Mahoney and not Charlie McCarthy! A bit of a back handed compliment, but nevertheless, revealing.
But you think Winchell was a fan of Bergen?
Winchell was like a little kid around Bergen. You saw his face! He then pulls out Jerry but again Bergen would have none of it. Here’s the thing, I can pretty much tell you that if I had said to Winchell that Bergen looked a little uncomfortable, he would have said, “Oh no, that’s Edgar Bergen!” He really looked up to Bergen. Bottom line? There was definitely something going on there.
Bergen had Charlie, Paul had Jerry. Bergen had Mortimer, Paul had Knucklehead.
Knucklehead was his Mortimer. He designed Knucklehead. He came from another Marshall figure. I asked him once what was his favorite?
He said, “Knucklehead.”
I said, “why?”
“Because Knucklehead is funny.”
Has Knucklehead remained the same through the years?
Basically, except this. Knucklehead originally had crossed eyes. He got letters from parents about it. So he was telling me this story. “I got Knucklehead on my lap, took my two thumbs and pushed his eyes so they were straight.” And I said, “Wait a minute, you mean Knuck had moving eyes? “ Winchell said, “yeah.”
So then I said, “So Knucklehead was originally a Marshall?”
“Yeah. I tell you what, go down stairs and get that browned haired Knucklehead.”
So I got the brown haired Knucklehead. I gave him to Winchell and he opens the mouth and pushes his fingers up into the head. I’m thinking to myself, where is my camera! (laughter)
Then Winchell mutters to himself, “No, nope. Not this one.”
I replied, “Well then I would assume the one in the Smithsonian.”
Winchell: “Yeah, that’s gotta be the one.”
Did you ever see the original Jerry at the Smithsonian?
Yeah, I was in Washington one time and I asked to see the original Jerry. So they took me to a room in the basement somewhere, opened a crate, and there he was. Amazing. Knucklehead too.
Was Winchell a philosophical guy?
Oh, yes. Winchell was brilliant.
He wrote a couple of ‘God’ books didn’t he?
Yes he did. If you wanted to really get on his good side, you would talk about religion. He was well studied. An intellectual on religion and spirituality. A very deep man.
Did he have any type of esoteric code that he lived by?
He was very curious and inquisitive. When he picked something, like religion, then he was all in. You know, he really wanted to be a doctor. That was his dream. And, he never liked the idea that he had been typed cast as a children’s entertainer.
Here’s a story for you. He used to call a veterinarian and he would say, after striking up a relationship, “What do you do with the animals after you put them to sleep?” “Well, we dispose of them,” was the reply. And Paul said, “Well, could you give them to me?” (laughter)
So like a DaVinci or Michelangelo, he would study the anatomy of animals?
Yes. Particularly the heart.
He did have some medical training didn’t he?
Yes, but he never finished it. He was always associating with Doctors. Hank Heimlich (1920-2016) was his dear dear friend. Heimlich helped Winchell in the development of the first artificial heart. He wanted to be a doctor, bottom-line. The vent thing came very easy for him. He always said, “Any of us could do it, it’s nothing special.” Well, I can’t do it. Not like him!
Did he turn his back on vent?
Yes, he didn’t want to have anything to do with it. When I called him originally, he made it very clear to me saying that he would not bring the dummies. I knew that upfront, so I said, “Paul, a lot of people won’t know who you are, so do you have some tape you could send me with Jerry and Knucklehead that I could use in your introduction?” Of course, I just wanted to view the tape! (laughter)
He didn’t want to have anything to do with ventriloquism nor did he want to have anything to do with ventriloquists. The young guys doing it back then? He didn’t want to talk with them at all.
During that time, I sent him a letter. It was a fan letter. No response.
You and a lot of other people.
What made him change. Who came to him and said, “Look Paul, you have really affected a generation here and you should recognize that.” Outside of yourself, who were those influences?
Everybody said that to him, but he didn’t give a damn.
Well, obviously at the end of his life he came back to it.
Yes, if you caught him on a good day, or a good week or good month or he liked you, that moment he would reconnect with his ventriloquism past. But generally speaking, no. He wanted to be known for something other than that. In other words, he did that. He did it successfully. Now it was time for him to do what he wanted to do originally, which was medicine and that sort of thing.
Did you ever approach him directly about it?
Yes. I used to say to him how influential he was. He would put his head down. And, I honestly believe that he didn’t seem to get it. I think he went to his grave not really knowing his influence. But I also think it had a lot to do with his up bringing and all this garbage that was floating around in his brain, that he never resolved.
Yeah, we are going to get to that, but I wanted to ask you this. What did he like to talk about with you?
It was more like what did I want to talk about with him! (laughter) I had a magnifying glass on him and I would ask him everything. How did Jerry happen, what did you do to change him, what did you do to get the winkers to work, everything like that. We did talk about medicine but mostly about vent.
Would he get aggravated?
He would always say, what is this so important to you? Exasperated you know. I was really careful though not to get him mad. Winchell could turn on a dime. Sometimes he would say, “Why do you ask me all these questions, and I would say, “Because sometime your not going to be here and I’m going to have to answer them.” (laughter) Well, here I am!
Bipolar?
I don’t think he was ever diagnosed bipolar, but I definitely think he was. I was very careful with him. Like I said, we would talk about everything. For instance, you remember the Dick Van Dyke episode? He told me that just a couple of weeks before that he was in an asylum, strait jacket and all. I found out later, that this was not an unusual occurrence. Sometimes he would just lose it.
But, he also was a pro in terms of his public face.
Yes, he had a persona. He was great. I once asked him, You look so happy when you’re on stage with Jerry, does he make you as happy as he (Jerry) makes us.
You know what he said? He didn’t miss a beat.
He said, “No. Not at all.”
“Why not,” I replied.
“Because every time I was up there with Jerry, I was doing it for the wrong reason. I was trying to please my Mother... “
That’s what he said to me.
Do you think he ever suffered from the imposter syndrome? You know, like you’re not good enough, you don’t belong here.
Probably a combination of all of that because his Mother made him feel that he was not good enough. I don’t think he felt that way when it came to medicine, but when it came to performing, he considered himself secondary to Bergen. Plus, all the things we are so amazed about, he simply did as a job.
So how did that creativity come about?
Well, he would ask questions. He would say, “why can’t Jerry’s arms move,” or “why can’t he dance.” That sort of thing. The competition would say, well this is what I do and that’s that. Paul wasn’t like that. He would ask the questions and then go about solving the problem. We are all the better for it. But, Paul Winchell was not a very secure man.
What motivated him to write the autobiography ‘Winch,’ which was so terribly transparent?
He wanted it to be a film. So, some of that was really exaggerated. He told me that because he didn’t think anyone would simply buy his life story.
But, there is a part in the book where he talks about making a dummy of his Mother. He told me that was real. He was going to a shrink at the time, and the shrink said, “Why don’t you make a ventriloquist dummy of your Mom so you can take out your frustrations?” Well, he did it! My next question was, “Where’s that dummy?” (laughter) That was my next question! He said, “ It’s long gone, I destroyed it.”
Did he have a publisher for the book?
Well, it was self published. So, he had boxes in his garage. Now of course, it is a collectors item and cost a lot of money to get it. But, at that point in time, it was important for him to write the book. But a week later, it might not have been. That is how he was.
Later on in life he went to Selberg to have a contemporary Jerry made for an audition with Disney.
Yeah, I was in the middle of all that. Winchell had a simple motivation. He wondered what Jerry would look like today? It was that simple. I said to him, “Who gives a shit!” (laughter) I tried to talk him out of it. When he did that with Jerry and Knucklehead I told him I thought it was a stupid idea. Jerry is Jerry! But, he went ahead and did it anyway.
So when he got the Selberg dummy he was thrilled and then two weeks later he hated it. I think he realized that Jerry had a charm. And, he had a relationship as well. That dummy he had made, wasn’t Jerry.
Did he ever follow through with the Disney thing?
No. About that time the Metromedia deal came up.
Let’s talk about that. My understanding is this: Paul had gone to Metromedia about syndicating his old shows. They couldn’t come to terms so Metromedia gave him an offer….”either accept our deal or we will destroy the tapes.” Accurate?
Well, yes. I’m not sure though that management knew the tapes were destroyed but ultimately they found out they were destroyed. When that happened, lawyers, friends everybody said don’t pursue this thing. You’re going to lose, you’ll get a bad rep, etc. Well, that was all Winchell needed to hear. He went at it with a vengeance. Nobody thought he would win. Metromedia at that time was a giant. Paul Winchell against Metromedia? Give me a break.
So when you say, that was all he needed to hear, explain that.
That was typical Paul that he would go against the grain. The rest is history. He won the case and the settlement was 17.5 million dollars. It made him a very rich man.
Paul said, “All the work I had done in the past, there was no record of it. Then finally I had the opportunity to do this taped thing, and I felt that at last, I’ll have some remaining record of my work that future people could see, especially children.
Suddenly, I didn’t have it anymore. It was gone forever.”
Tragic...so, how was Paul Winchell a friend to you?
That’s a good question. He knew how much I loved him. At first, from a far, then when I was lucky enough to get to know him. He realized how much I adored him. He responded to that. I couldn’t get enough of him and he was wonderful, a friend, a father a grandfather.
What were you to him.
I think the same. He used to call all the time. I remember one time about two weeks had passed and I hadn’t called him. He got mad at me and we didn’t talk for 3 months. I didn’t do it intentionally. We got it patched up. In retrospect, rather being upset, I should have been flattered. He was hurt, genuinely hurt. So when you ask, what was I to him, well, he cared about me as well.
Would you regularly talk on the phone?
All the time. Like old buddies. You know, in some ways, it is hard for me to explain my relationship with him. When he died, his wife asked me to invite people that I thought should be at the memorial. I did. The day came and I was just a mess. Completely ripped up. I didn’t know that would happen. I went to my wife and said, “I can’t speak.” So, she got up there and spoke for me and did a fabulous job. Of course, she knew as much about Winchell as I did! But she did great.
He died in his sleep didn’t he?
Well, he was 80 some years old and got this crazy idea to get a colonoscopy. There was no reason for this. But, he was on a blood thinner. In order to get a colonoscopy you have to go off the blood thinners. Well, I was with him. And he was fine. I left that night and as always he would grab me by the cheek and kiss me. He would say, “I love you.” “I love you too Paul,” I would say. That night he passed away. They found him on the floor with the blood thinner pills. Either he took them or he didn’t. They weren’t sure. That’s how he passed away.
Did he have a heart condition?
Yes, yes. He had had bypass surgery and had also lost sight in his left eye as a result of a stroke.
Was Winchell a loner?
If he was feeling good, he wasn’t. At the end, I would say he was a loner, yes. When I visited toward the end, there was never anyone else there except his wife.
Were his marital relationships good.
No….no.
So he was terrible at relationships?
My opinion is this. He was married three times and I think he was constantly looking for a Mother figure. He would get into a spat with one of his wive's and they would separate for awhile. Then, and this is a true story, one of his wive's called and said, “I’m not coming back unless you put a million dollars in my bank account.” I said to Paul, “What did you do?” He said, “I put a million in her account.” (laughter)
Did he ever talk abut how he wanted to be remembered?
No, but I would talk to him about it. I would always say, you have to talk to me about this stuff because people are going to ask me. Remember Kelly Asbury?
Well, Kelly and I were friends. Kelly wanted in the worst way to get an interview with Paul for his book Dummy Days. Paul always declined. He would say, “You do the interview. You know more about me than I do." So, I did. Well, right before the book came out Kelly called me again and said, “Please can you get me an interview with Paul?” So I called Paul and said, “Paul this is stupid. You gotta talk with Kelly.” He said, “All right. I’ll give him an hour.”
Jump ahead to the book signing event. Kelly asked me again if I could get Paul to be at the signing. Paul asked, “Do you think I should do it” “Yes,” I said, I’ll go with you.”
Well, now word is getting around that Winchell is going to be there and rumors are starting that he is going to perform. I said to Paul, “People are expecting you to perform. You gotta do this.” Paul was being his usual belligerent self.
A lot of people there?
It was packed. Everyone was there to see Winchell. Everyone was there. Leonard Maltin, Milton Delugg, just a ton of people. Well, finally, Paul said, “All right I’ll do something.” But he didn’t have Jerry or Knucklehead. But there were replicas there. So he grabs one of the Jerry’s and says, “God dammit, God dammit, the levers aren’t right.” Anyway, he’s going crazy.
Paul says: “Get Jerry Layne.” Then he says to Jerry, “All right here is what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna tell a couple of jokes and then I’ll ask where’s Jerry and you bring Jerry down the center aisle. The place will go crazy.” Now understand, Paul could hardly walk at this point having recently had a stroke. But, he just took command of the situation. It was just great. Just great to see him that way.
Paul says, “Bring him down the aisle, I’ll put my leg up on the chair.”
“Wait a minute,” I said, “You can’t put your leg up like you used to. (laughter) I’ll bring the chair out and you can sit.”
Winchell says, “All right. All right.” Then he says, I’ll do something with Jerry and then bring out Knucklehead.”
It was fantastic. He took complete control of the situation. He is talking with Jerry and Jerry starts commenting that he looks different. Paul explains that he had a stroke and that he couldn’t see out of his left eye. Jerry looks at him and says, “You mean you can’t see the audience on your left side? “ Paul says "Yes." Jerry leans over, looks at the audience then leans back, looks at Paul and says: “That’s ok, they’re not worth looking at anyway.”
Fantastic. That was his last performance.
Finis
Visit Burt Dubrow on his facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/burt.dubrow
To see the 'What's my Line' clip with Winchell and Bergen go here: https://youtu.be/ZBPnMHsB0vw?si=2NH2DTutk2LLzUwX the clip begins at 19 minute mark.
Salute!
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